Your transcript

[00:00:00] Gillian: Every now and then I interview someone on the podcast who leaves me thinking and buzzing for hours afterwards. That's exactly what happened when I spoke with Michelle Redfern. The truth is I already knew Michelle was smart. Like she's an award winning diversity, equity and inclusion leader. She has a great reputation. But it wasn't until I dug deeper into the research for this podcast that I realised just how extraordinary she truly is. Her new book, The Leadership Compass is a must read. If you consider yourself an ambitious leader who values their career, then this book is for you.
[00:00:36] And here's the big question her work asks, what if the way you've been told to advance your career has been missing a critical piece? What if you've had plenty of great advice, but still feel like you're not progressing the way you need to or want to. Well, today's episode just might help you uncover the missing piece.
[00:00:58] Michelle has spent years helping women and organisations close the leadership gap and she's discovered a formula that is changing how women succeed at work. Her approach goes way, way, way, way, way beyond the usual generic advice that we hear. She's developed this formula or a recipe, as she says, that's designed to help leaders reach their full potential, all the while navigating all the complexities of today's work environments.
[00:01:27] Now in this episode, we'll unpack the formula. We'll explore mentoring, personal branding, and networking. And I know those might sound like predictable topics, but Michelle brings a perspective that's anything but. Like her insights are fresh, practical, and she will have you rethinking everything you thought you knew about advancing your career.
[00:01:50] This is a powerful conversation with a grounded, heartfelt, and clever woman. If you're ready to challenge conventional wisdom and rethink how you can advance. Well, this episode is for you. Let's dive in.
Hi, Michelle, and welcome to the Your Brilliant Career Podcast. I've been reading your book, The Leadership Compass, over the past few days, and I can't tell you moments I've actually had where I've thought, yes, exactly. I feel there's so much alignment between your ideas and some of my beliefs about progressing more women in the workplace, except you've pulled it all together so exceptionally well with frameworks and it's so beautifully articulated here. But I can't wait to dive into some of this with you today.
[00:03:50] Michelle: Thank you. Well, thank you for reading the book and thanks for the feedback. Cause yes, I wanted it to be very accessible to, no matter where you are in your career as a woman or a manager of a woman to be very, very clear, accessible, bit like me, pretty upfront, you know, it does what it says on the tin.
[00:04:09] Gillian: Well, you know, the words that really struck me when I was reading, I'm like, this is very relevant, it is accessible, which I think is very important as well and it's the sort of content that keeps women valued and contemporary in their workplace. And we've all got to be mindful of that. Before we dive into things, I feel like we need to mention Susan Colantuono, our mutual connection. Susan is the founder of Be Business Savvy the author of No Ceilings, and of course the famous TED talk that she delivered, The Career Advice You Probably Didn't Get. And I think that's been viewed over 4. 5 million times or something unbelievable. And I suppose my question to you, Michelle, Susan's big insight about this critical role of business, strategic and financial acumen. How did you feel when you first encountered this concept that we have this critical role of business, strategic and financial acumen in leadership advancement?
[00:05:10] Michelle: Well, when I first encountered it, I wailed. So the back story is I was flying to the States to meet Susan because we were about to start a partnership together through some other mutual contacts. And I read the book on the plane and I'm going, oh my goodness gracious, and then I sat with her at the back of a corporate trainings in America and just heard the content come to life, and I remember I turned to her and I say this in the book and I said, Oh my God, Susan, where were you when I needed you 25 years ago? I needed this advice 25 years ago.
[00:05:44] Gillian: And she said to you, I'm here now.
[00:05:47] Michelle: I'm here now. It doesn't matter. I'm here now and now you know what to do about it. And of course, I also, as part of that though Gillian, what I've learned in the subsequent ten years, nearly ten years, is I had been given that advice, I hadn’t paid enough attention to it. But through great, luck, good fortune, and my own very hard work and commitment to my career, I had managed to get some really good people around me who had helped me lift that side of my capability.
[00:06:17] But I just, I wasn't overtly aware of it until then, and of course the subsequent 10 years I've spent, preaching the good word about the missing 33%.
[00:06:27] Gillian: Let’s set the scene. What is BQ, first of all? Explain what BQ is.
[00:06:32] Michelle: For your listeners that have read No Ceiling No Walls or watched Susan's TED Talk, the way I want to position my book is, my book is the follow on from Susan's book. It's the updated, it's the 2024 version of her book. So BQ is a way of wrapping up those skills, because there's a formula, right? Leadership is a set of skills and, like any other skill, can be learned with discipline practice, mastered. So, BQ is the first part and that is comprised of acumen, strategic acumen, financial acumen, and a success orientation. Success orientation is code for ambition and I really, really talk to and embrace ambitious women because, you know, ambitious women is still a bit of, you know, it can be used as a pejorative term, but the success orientation is I want to be successful for myself, my team and my organisation.
[00:07:27] So in essence, it's the person who knows the business of the business. So they know, how do we make money? How do we manage cost? How do we, create profit and distribute that profit to either shareholders or invest back in our company? Strategic, we know where the business is heading, why, what the external and the internal drivers are, those forces, and what my role is in helping move the business forward.
[00:07:51] And of course, financial acumen is not just being able to read a P& L, a cash flow and a balance sheet. Although those three things are very, very important. But say, what do I learn from when I look at the numbers? What do I learn when I look at the metrics that matter? And of course, there's the cash side or the money side, and then there's all the other metrics.
[00:08:09] How do we measure performance? And then what do I do with those numbers to create actionable insights, again, to move the business forward? Because I am ambitious for the business. That's BQ. it's the leader who is really clear about her role in the organisation to help it grow. And every organisation wants to grow.
[00:08:30] Gillian: It’s such a powerful concept. And to your earlier point, I know you talked about having bosses that gave you the opportunities to build and showcase your BQ, your business intelligence. And in that way you were lucky and you say that as well, but it doesn't always land that way, does it? It just doesn't, but you also shared that most of your leadership lessons came from men because you didn't have a woman boss at the executive level until your late thirties. And that's a lot of time learning from one gender perspective. How do you think that shaped and influenced you?
[00:09:04] Michelle: It was profound for my leadership. Now, I have some real, epiphanies when I hit one of my milestone birthdays. Up until, as you said, my late 30s, I hadn't had, a female CEO, a female executive, general manager, or anything like that. And then suddenly within the space of sort of really a couple of years, I had a very senior, female leader when I worked for Telstra.
[00:09:29] And then I moved into a business process outsourcing company. We had a woman CEO. So up until that point, Gillian, I had learned how to be a male leader, frankly. So I had learned to be tough play hard, work hard, not ask for help, not show vulnerability, not show weakness, and I was known as a very tough, uncompromising leader who will get shit done. That was a reputation I had. I was also known though as someone who was kind and caring, but I didn't show that up the line very much. I showed it to my people, but I learned, what I now see as a very narrow definition of leadership.
[00:10:15] Michelle: I had two signals, which one I kind of, ignored and one I really took notice of. But the first signal was I went to work for an organisation and the person who head hunched me in, he said, thank God you're here. We need someone who can get stuff done and not really, give a toss about you know, whether people's feelings are going to be hurt. And there was a part of me that was horrified, but a part of me that was a little bit proud. I thought, yeah, that's the person I'm known as.
[00:10:41] Get shit done and take no prisoners and then luckily, I was on a real self-development curve at that time. I started to pay attention, do I really want to be known as that person?
[00:10:54] And it was kind of like I had an inner sanctum and people saw, you know, the kind, compassionate me, because I am, I'm very kind, I'm very compassionate and I'm very loyal. But outside of that pretty narrow group, most people would have seen “Here She Comes, Look Out”.
[00:11:09] Gillian: You talk about professional reputation in your book, and the importance of, what you're known for within the organisation, how you evolve yourself, what do you think is one step that women could take to build their personal brand in a way that supports their career?
[00:12:00] Michelle: Well, the first step is to understand what it is right now. Because you already have a brand up here. I'm going to go and build my brand. I go, you've already got one.
[00:12:08] Gillian: Well it's so true, Michelle, we all have a reputation, it's not earned from doing the dazzling presentation. It's earned from shooting the breeze while you're making your cup of tea, the way you perform in the team's meeting, the way you deal with a problem, isn't it?
[00:12:22] Michelle: It's the way you show up every day and I talk about leadership. I'm particularly a high EQ leader. She knows how to lead herself, others in the organisation, but she knows the impact she has on those around her and how she can capture hearts, minds and efforts towards the goal.
[00:12:38] And that goal might be her own personal goal, a professional goal, the organisational goal. So, the first bit of advice is, what do people think about you right now? And what I don't want women to do is rush off and say, can you give me some feedback, please? Because that's really confronting for most people.
[00:12:56] A woman comes up and they say, oh, I'd love some feedback on my performance. Most of us would just shrivel inside a little bit and go, oh no, not that question.
[00:13:04] Gillian: And it can sound very junior, can't it sometimes?
[00:13:07] Michelle: It can, but it also puts people in a really, unless you've got real social capital with that person, you know, really strong relationship where there's a lot of trust and a lot of respect. Most of the time you're going to get what most women get, which is pretty namby pamby feedback, nebulous. Oh, look, you've done a great job, Gillian. I really appreciate having you on the team. And so what I'd say is you walk away, think about all of the advice you've got recently, or any time. Write it down and then say, which bits can I action? Oh, you've done a really good job. Okay, well, so what can I action from that? Absolutely bloody nothing. Can you explain to me what you'd like to be doing more of or less of in 2025, Gillian? Because I'm really keen that we, we are aligned in terms of our goals.
[00:13:53] That's a better way. Or, ask for advice. Gillian, in 2025, I really want to make sure that the impact I'm having against, insert whatever you're doing is really positive. What's your advice when you've been in my situation for making sure that you've increased your impact?
[00:14:11] And it's also a good way of understanding how do people perceive you. Oh, look, keep being really nice to your people, Michelle. Right okay, so I'm perceived as the woman who's really nice to her people, but probably can't cut through with a supplier negotiation or anything like that.
[00:14:27] So, back to the personal brand question, what is your brand? It's what people say about you when you're not in the room or what people think and feel about you when they hear your name. And it can be difficult to understand that without being vulnerable enough to go in and say, you know what, who are my trusted advisors here?
[00:14:47] Who are my strategic mentors? Okay, you need to, to let me know what's my brand out there? What do people say about me? And if I were to be very deliberate and intentional about my brand, what would you have me do more of or less of in the next 12 months?
[00:15:03] Gillian: Yeah, it's a magic start and let's talk about mentoring. Like, so do you, would you say that can you be my mentor is the wrong way to go, because mentoring gets a lot of attention. In fact, I heard on one of your, a podcast that you were on that you were in corporate and you'd been put on this special program, and there was a cohort of mentors available to you, you strategically choose the one that looks like he's got the most seniority and nous and it's a really disappointing experience.
[00:15:33] And I think listening to that was such a relatable story because not all executives are great mentors, are they, Michelle?
[00:15:41] Michelle: No, and not all mentees know how to be a good mentee either. And I put myself into that category at that time because I was a very, very ambitious, woman and I went, I'm going to pick the person at the top of the tree here because that's going to help accelerate my career. What I didn't do was have a plan, nor was there a structure around the mentoring.
[00:16:00] It was kind of throw us all together and hope for the best. And frankly, the mentor was a screaming introvert who was very shy, even though he's very senior. And I was a screaming extrovert who's very confident. He looked terrified every time I walked into his office and I don't blame him actually, because I can be a bit exuberant and over the top. And he would have gone, God almighty, here she comes again. She's exhausting. And she'll ask me 29 questions and you know, all that kind of stuff. So we called it quits after a while because we both worked out we weren't getting what we needed. But women, women are over mentored and under sponsored and under promoted, and and yes, I think mentoring, strategic mentoring is part of a group of strategies that can close the leadership gender gap. But it's not in and of itself, throwing people into a mentoring program will not achieve goals unless it's very structured, it is aligned with the business goals.
[00:16:57] What's our goal here? Okay, we want to increase growth, build our talent pipeline. But we also have to teach people how to be good mentors because research and Susan's research, supports the fact that women are not mentored about how to grow the business, they are mentored about how to be more confident, how to be more assertive. They are given very encouraging supportive mentoring, but they're not given strategic mentoring necessarily that is going to help them move into those very senior executive C suite roles. So whether you're a mentee, a mentor, or you're a person in organisations who's designing mentoring programs, think really critically about why are we designing and delivering a mentoring program? Is it going to close our leadership gender gap?
[00:17:49] And if the answer is yes, how, and how are we going to measure it, and how are we going to link it to the business outcomes, all that kind of stuff. So, I get very energized about mentoring because I've had so many less than optimum experiences myself, both as a mentee and mentor, but I've also had some extraordinarily positive ones, and I have designed some really good programs where the organisation's been super serious about it, and we've seen the outcomes being delivered.
[00:18:16] Gillian: If you were to mentor me, what would you be looking for, Michelle? What would make me a person that would be good to work with. Maybe adds value to you? What would be some of the things that you would want to see?
[00:18:30] Michelle: I want to know that, that you're, you're being strategic. So, well, actually I've looked at your work in the X, Y, Z.
[00:18:36] I can see that you've got skills in and you are known for. I've got a gap or an opportunity aligned to that, and I think you can help me close that gap. So that's, that's the first one that you've done your research, but you actually know what you need. And look, and sometimes it might be, I actually don't know what I need, Michelle. But you're very senior. I've got aspirations to be in your role or one similar. I've seen your background and your journey. Can you help me gain clarity about what are my strengths I need to leverage and the skill gaps I need to close? Right. I can do that. That's really good. So that's number one. And then as part of the engagement, the mentee has to do the heavy lifting. I'm not writing out coaching plans, I'm not coaching you, I'm mentoring you, I'm sharing my wisdom, my expertise, my experiences.
[00:19:24] I want you to come to every mentoring catch up that we have, prepared, and prepared means you've done the things I've asked you to do last time. And you can give me some stories about how that went, but you've also got questions thought for me or, or, Hey, Michelle, I've got a situation. This is coming up. Can you help me prepare for it? Or what would you do? And what have you done in the past? She must be very prepared and very cognisant of the mentor's time, wisdom, and expertise that they are willingly giving you. Now, for women listening who are going, geez, she sounds like a bit of a tough person.
[00:20:00] Yes, I am. But the reality is I'm also incredibly honoured to be a mentor anytime I'm asked, formally or informally. But I don't want to waste anyone's time. I think it's incumbent on us as mentors also to say, don't just say yes to everyone, because we can't, time is finite. And again, leadership, how can I show up as my best self for this person? How can I really show up each time she wants to talk with me and give her what she needs?
[00:20:55] Gillian: I think it's absolutely true. Every encounter you have is a business meeting of sorts. So it should be focused and, you know, mindful of time and your behaviour and all of those things. And it is not the mentor’s responsibility to solve all your problems and to do all the talking and to sit there.
[00:21:13] So I think you're so right that education on both sides. But let's more about this wonderful formula because this kind of blew me away when I read the book, because it is such a clear formula for advancing women. And I know you spoke about it a little bit before, but I just feel like we need to dive into it.
[00:21:31] And it is this combination of your business intelligence, your emotional intelligence and your social intelligence. So talk to us how you help women with these things why they're so instrumental in helping them progress in their careers.
[00:21:48] Michelle: I help women in a whole bunch of different ways. I want to help in as many ways as I can, because let's face it, we've still got a very, very yawning, leadership gender gap around the world. So closing that is to what I do, but essentially this leadership formula, BQ plus EQ plus SQ is the formula and essentially it means that you are able to lead yourself, others and organisations to achieve full potential. And this is a leadership formula. My message is for ambitious women leaders and the people who want more ambitious leaders, women leaders in their organisation. I run a business, just like you do Gillian, and we want our business to reach its full potential. So, we want to make sure that we've got people around us who are going to lift and help us do that every day.
[00:22:38] Now, they can't do that unless they've got the knowledge about how the business works. They can't do that unless they know what makes people tick, and themselves tick. And they also can't do that if no one knows them and they don't have a great reputation and that effectively is the formula.
[00:22:54] How do I be really ambitious and run this business across all of the metrics that matter?
[00:23:00] The EQ, and many women will have had lots of exposure to, and discussion about EQ. Emotional intelligence, because women have a free kick when it comes to emotional intelligence.
[00:23:12] We are assumed to all be off the charts emotionally intelligent. Some of us are not, by the way. But that's where gender bias gives us a favour. Although it can be a limiting favour. But for me, EQ in leadership, she is the leader who really gets how to show up in service of herself, her people and her organisation.
[00:23:32] She gets what makes her go tick, including tick, tick, boom. She gets. So what's the room I'm in? What, what matters to these people? How do I make sure I have the right people in the right place at the right time, doing the right thing, which is the BQ stuff. I get that if, you know, if I had Michelle in my team, I'd know don't put her in charge of spreadsheets and working on her own because she'll just go tick, tick, boom within three days because she would be bored senseless.
[00:24:01] No, give Michelle customers and give Michelle stakeholders and you know, all the, all that kind of stuff. And Susan makes mention of this in her engaging the greatness in others. She captures the hearts, the minds, but the efforts of people and aligns them towards the goal.
[00:24:18] And then the final one is the SQ and that is Who are you? Do people know you, respect you, trust you and want to do business with you? So what's your brand? Are you known as a skilled networker? Because as you and I both know Gillian, the more senior you become, the more your network matters, particularly in terms of driving both your career and the organisation forward and that was another big learning I had. You know, I might be the most skilled person in the room, but if no one knows it no one can respect it and certainly no one can trust it. No one will do business with me. So it's about being known for all the right reasons. It's about being a trusted ethical colleague.
[00:25:02] So the SQ is, you know, if you wanted to boil it down to two things, your personal brand and you're a skilled networker. But there's so much else underneath that.
[00:25:11] Gillian: I think it's absolutely brilliant. And I'm certainly going to encourage the women we work with to read your book, because I often say, listen to Susan's TEDTalk, because you watch that and then immediately they have the appetite to want to figure this out. Like that's, that is the, it's the runway.
[00:25:31] Michelle: Absolutely, yeah, and it is, it's such a provocative but useful TED talk because I too, and of course I've shown that TED talk in various environments you know, the work that Susan and I do, we have audiences of women in front of us and we kind of go through it and you can just see the dawning of knowledge on faces.
[00:25:49] What do I do about that? Okay, here's the recipe. Away we go. And one of the things that, that I often say to, to women is please don't read this recipe and go, wow, that looks hard and I don't reckon I'll ever get there because, you know, I remember the first time I cooked Coq Au Vin, and I had to chop up a chook and, you know, and I'm going, oh my God, this is hard.
[00:26:11] And it's quite unpleasant really. But you know what? I ended up making Coq Au Vin. Now I can make it, you know, off by heart and all that kind of stuff. So this is the discipline practice, but I want women to get really targeted and really intentional. Don't fly around trying to do everything. Say, okay, where am I right now?
[00:26:28] What have I got? Great. Let me keep playing to those strengths and keep nurturing them. But what haven't I got that I need? Aha. And for me, it was financial acumen. Really big aha moment or a no shit moment it actually was in my career. I went, oh, my goodness, this is a game changer. In fact, it'll be a career derailer unless I close this gap.
[00:26:52] I was a bit scared at the time. I went, Oh my goodness gracious, I've got all this money and I'm not very good at this thing. Okay. Gotta learn where are you now? Where do you need to go? What have you got in your toolkit? What haven't you got? And just have a plan about getting it is it easy? No. Is it an insurmountable goal? Absolutely not. It's disciplined practice.
[00:27:15] Gillian: I love that. And all of it it’s about owning your career. You know what I mean? Not waiting for someone else to tap you on the shoulder and give you the answers. It's about really owning it, driving it, making decisions, being very present in it, and we're all capable of doing that.
[00:27:31] Michelle: Absolutely. The Messiah is not coming, ladies. There is no Messiah. There is no fairy godmother or fairy godfather or fairy god person who's going to come in with their magic wand and go, tap, you're now anointed. It will not happen.
[00:27:45] Gillian: But I think it does happen in the front part of their career. And that's where it become so confusing because, if you're good in the front part of your career, you get promoted, you get feedback, it's such a happy little place to reside. And then no one tells you, you cross this little silent border where it gets more political. The stakeholders are trickier, everything starts to shift and you need a different skill set and set of behaviours to navigate that next phase of your career.
[00:28:14] Michelle: Absolutely. What served me well at the front end of my career, was always going to serve me well. Oh, it's personable. I enjoyed people, But the reality was I needed to build on that, and the other reality is you also need to let go of some stuff as well. Let's stop promoting someone who's really good at their job into leadership without really understanding A, if they want it and B, if they're prepared to do the work to be a great people leader. I think as organisational leaders, we've got to be really much more deliberate about who gets the people leader job and how we help them achieve their full potential.
[00:28:52] Gillian: Such an amazing conversation. We have to wrap it up, but a very important question, Michelle, because you offer such brilliant programs. Your book is fantastic. Resources. Your work is truly exceptional. So where can our listeners find out more about you and your work?
[00:29:11] Michelle: Thanks Gillian. I really appreciate that because when I first started all this malarkey, I thought, what's one of my goals? I thought I want to be to women who are 25, 30, 35, what I needed when I was 25, 30, 35. A fairly accomplished but relatable senior woman. So, thank you very much. That means a lot to me.
[00:29:32] michelleredfern.com is where you can find my website. I'm very active on LinkedIn and Instagram. I also have, the Lead to Soar Network. So we've got the podcast so you can listen to me.
[00:29:47] Gillian: And we'll put all the links in the show notes. So everything, everything will be there. So people including your books that people can download, but Michelle, it's been an absolute pleasure. So thank you.
[00:29:57] Michelle: No, thank you Gillian. and thank you for the work that you do with women as well. I really resonate with what you said before. We have to drive our own careers, but we're not necessarily, well, certainly when I was coming up as a baby manager, 947 years ago, I wasn't really given the tools or the resources or people like you to go to, to know how to drive my career strategically. So thank you for that work cause I think it's super important for women.