Your transcript

Gillian: How to think strategically about a career transition. That's what I want to talk about today. Why? Because career transitions are tough. If you've experienced one, you know how hard it can be to simply reimagine a new role that's dramatically different from the one that you have. My guest today is John Tarnoff, a mid-career transition expert.
[00:00:23] When John approached me to speak on the podcast, I thought it would be a fantastic topic for us to explore. Like so many of the women I get to work with are at crossroads at some point in their career. And those career transitions, they can be complex. Like, where do you start with all of this? It's a big and challenging process. It requires careful planning, perseverance, and a willingness to step out of your comfort zone. Now, John says without a strong support system or guidance, navigating a career change can feel completely overwhelming. And isn't that the truth? Like it's the time when you seek out more support.
[00:01:04] You think more deeply about your life. Your beliefs. You reconsider what's important. What's possible for you. And it's magical and it's frightening to some extent too, but it's good to understand where that fear comes from. And, and John's going to talk about a lot of these things because reinvention, it's kind of what he does best.
[00:01:26] And, I think the beautiful thing about it all is that it is entirely possible for everyone. And that's exciting, right? Now, John is the author of a bestselling book, Boomer Reinvention. He has a huge following on LinkedIn, on a lot of social media, actually. And you can also watch his very engaging and funny, I'm going to add TEDx Talk, and I'll pop that in the show notes. In our conversation today, we discuss networking. I know it's that thing that make your eyes glaze over, but we talk about it in a very purposeful way. Finding your superpower, such an important thing, not just being this generic all-rounder. What is your superpower?
[00:02:06] Shedding the baggage from past bad work experiences. And we also explore his somewhat controversial take on forgetting your passion, don’t worry about that, and finding your usefulness. It's a really nourishing and fun discussion and it's full of great tips. So, let's jump in.
[00:02:29] Well, John, welcome to the podcast. It is so exciting to have you here this morning.
[00:03:23] John: I'm so thrilled to be here. Thanks so much.
[00:03:25] Gillian: Well, I think we should start off because you have this intriguing background in my mind and reinvention is kind of like your middle name. Right? So, so tell us a little bit about your background because you've got the film part. You've done this dazzling TED Talk. You're also very funny. So give us, give us a bit of a snapshot at what you do today.
[00:03:45] John: Right. So I am a career transition coach. I focus primarily on people who are in mid-career transitions. So for people who have kind of climbed the initial mountain in their career and get to the summit and then realise, Oh my God, there's another mountain on the other side. And this often happens in midlife, mid career, people who are in their 40s and their 50s, sometimes older, sometimes younger.
[00:04:11] But it really does come down to this moment in your life and career where you think, what's next, right? Everything that has worked for me up until now may continue to work, but I'm not so sure anymore. I have conquered obstacles, I have achieved results, I have built a reputation, now what do I do with it?
[00:04:34] Right? So all of these kinds of identity concerns that we focus on at this stage in life, and this became a fascination for me in my own career when I hit a wall mid career, I was turning 50, and I had at that point built a career in the motion picture business in Los Angeles, working for studios, working on my own as a producer, and I had gone off into a “sabbatical in tech” in the nineties when multimedia was becoming a thing and the internet was becoming a thing and I went off into that world as an early adopter, shiny new toy, kind of a guy, partner. And I started a company, raised money into the bubble, had a large staff, big contracts with named clients and then spring of 2001, the NASDAQ crashed.
[00:05:30] Everything went from here to here in the space of two months. And we of course went along with it. So contracts disappeared, the investors disappeared and at the end, as we got into 2002, and I thought, well, what am I going to do now? I don't want to go back to what I used to do in the film business. I am not sure what the future holds. And one day I got this epiphany, this message that came to me from the ether, go back to school. And I decided to enrol in a psychology program that I had been aware of, a number of people I knew who had been through this program, not so much because they were training to be psychologists, but because it really was a life mastery opportunity for them to learn more about who they were, how they were presenting, what life was about, what they were about.
[00:06:24] And I had to really dig deep. I had to, I mean, I didn't have any money. I had a kid in private school. I had to remortgage the house for what was going to have to be the last time. This was kind of a make or break, but I knew that I had to do something. And I knew that by just moving forward, I was going to discover something and I remember early on in the program listening to a guy get up and share about how he had just been offered this great new job and it was in a city where he wanted to move to and the perks were great and all these advantages and how he was so feeling so completely blessed that this had happened to him.
[00:07:05] I remember sitting there thinking, well, miracles are for other people, but they're not for me.
[00:07:09] Gillian: I think that's the case for a lot of high performing people. Like I know the women we work with, John, like so many of them have had excellent careers, you and they have been the high performers and acknowledged as that throughout their career and accomplished a lot of things. But then things happen, you know, it can be a restructure, redundancy, like different things just happen.
[00:07:30] And I mean, it's probably not the same level as the NASDAQ going down and losing a whole company, but it feels like that, right?
[00:07:38] John: Every job loss is a big loss, right? The point I wanted to make about this, this, deep, dark baseline moment for me was that within six months, my whole life turned around. I started meeting new people. I started going out and talking differently, being open to new ideas. developing a new framework around what I was interested in and just talking freely about this.
[00:08:05] And it got me in connection with certain people who said, Oh, you got to talk to this person, this person, this person. And I wound up six months later in a job back in the movie business, which I wasn't expecting, at DreamWorks Animation, an amazing company, in a job that I, that was kind of tailored for me.
[00:08:22] There was no, there was no job description. There was no, they weren't looking for anyone. They decided that I was someone who could help them solve a problem that they really didn't know they had. And they essentially made a place for me. And I was there for six years working on people initiatives and staffing and new projects that were a perfect intersection for me of where I had been, what I learned, what they needed, where they were going. And it was a great romance until it wasn't. And I actually essentially fired myself from the best job that I ever had, because I realised that I had finished what I was there to accomplish.
[00:09:11] And it was a really weird, as you might imagine, a really weird sensation for me to realise that this wonderful company, but it was time for me to leave.
[00:09:19] Gillian: How did you know it was time to leave John? Like What was the catalyst?
[00:09:22] John: I was getting bored. I realised that everything that I had struggled to set up the, all the dragons that I had to slay were slain and it was all working, it was all working fine. It was on a kind of a maintenance program and I was getting itchy because one of the things that I realised in my psychology program was that I'm not a steady state guy.
[00:09:46] I am a build it and build it onto the next, kind of a guy. I need to be constantly figuring out new things. And I was starting to atrophy really. So I actually went to the COO who I reported to. It was a great woman. And I said to her, look, this is going be a strange meeting. I said, but is there anything left for me to do around here?
[00:10:09] And she turned bright red, and she said, look, first of all, before I answer the question, I just want to say, we love you. You've done an amazing job here. This has been an amazing experience for all of us. The timing was right. She said, but having said that, in answer to your question, the answer is probably not.
[00:10:29] And she said, look, take some time, figure it out, go around, ask questions, see what's going on, see what other people are doing. You know, everyone. Maybe there is something where it would make sense for you to stay on and I looked around and there wasn't. I would have had to move out.
[00:10:44] It was all sorts of things I would have had to do that I didn't want to do. And I really wanted to pursue this education and training agenda, which I had started for them, which ultimately led to the coaching practice. And it gave me the foundation of going out and starting something new, which was challenging and had its own ups and downs, and that was, 14 years ago that I started this. And 12 years ago, I was invited to do this TEDx and that's really what launched it.
[00:11:12] Gillian: Let, let's go back to this idea of career setbacks. Most people at some point in their career will have some level of setback.
[00:11:20] Different proportions, but particularly if you're really stretching yourself, and I know I've heard you talk about your career and you had different jobs every few years, which is pretty typical these days as well. But what do you think from your observation of working with people? What is the hardest thing for most people when they hit that crossroad and, you know, they're experiencing that career setback. They want reinvention, but they've landed. What, what is your experience?
[00:11:49] John: The hardest thing I think that people have to deal with is their over- identification with their jobs. The more successful you are, the harder it is to decouple from that identification. And our language doesn't help because, think about this, if you, if you meet someone at a networking event or a cocktail party.
[00:12:13] And you say, what do you do? And they say, well, I'm a director of business development for this company, or I'm a career coach or I'm a podcaster, they say I am, but that's inaccurate, they are not, they are a human being with many skills and talents and abilities. They work as this particular role or job title for the time being in a succession of roles and job titles, but that's not who they are.
[00:12:45] Gillian: No, not at all. You know, Jim, when I left magazines, which is my background, I really missed it. I really miss telling people that because people were so much more tantalised and interested in me, but you know, well, I work with these and they go, really? And they would ask me questions and then I would say, well, I'm, you know, you know, I'm a leadership consultant and I was like, Oh, okay.
[00:13:06] And I think you're right. And we have often had jokes among some of my close girlfriends who have been very successful and have had a setback, one in particular. And instead she put all her energy into becoming this super incredible athlete. And, you know, we were making so much fun of her for this because it's like all that energy and power that sat over here into the career. She just picked it up immediately and she put it over there. And I think it's part of that, you know, that way, that strategy of just trying to figure it all out. Right.
[00:13:39] John: That's a great example because you're describing this personal approach, which says I am a set of values, experiences, capabilities, interests, talents. Those are independent from the job title. I can apply this wherever I want to go. In this case, in the case of your friend, this was into an athletics practice or career.
[00:14:09] But people talk about portable skills. What, I don't know what, I don't know what my portable skills are because they're identifying again so closely with the job where they were working with a particular set of clients or vendors that had a particular set of routines that they went through, but they're not looking at the underlying talents and skill sets that they used – communication, organisation, analysis, strategy, inspiration, empathy, right? All sorts of ways in which we actually get work done. No matter what the particular skillset might be on the outside that we're employing.
[00:14:50] Gillian: So how do we get that detachment and what are some of the first steps people can do to start that transition process?
[00:14:58] John: The way that I always lead off with my clients is through a very simple exercise that's based on this Japanese notion of ikigai or life's purpose. And in the West, this has been translated into a set of four questions and a Venn diagram, which is somewhat controversial, but I kind of stay out of the controversy and I kind of go for the value of it.
[00:15:18] And the four questions are simply: What do I love to do? What am I good at? What does my world need? And what can I get paid for? And at the intersection of those four questions is the beginning of your answer to what you're going to do next. And it is part of a process of re-evaluation re-centring on what makes you, you, particularly through all of the experiences that you've had, the trials and tribulations that you've had.
[00:15:52] To really identify those strengths and weaknesses that are going to help you make a better decision about where you want to go. And from that you create what I call the superpower, which is that particular combination of talents, abilities, values, experiences, deliverables, that you do uniquely well, that derive from all that you are, and that will actually help you be useful and make a difference and an impact for people who need it; employers, investors, clients, partners. So that's the first step,
[00:16:36] Gillian: Do you think most people pigeonhole themselves too much, John, in terms of thinking about themselves as an expert versus the business acumen that they have acquired over the years, the capacity to get results through others? I mean, a lot of leadership capabilities, really, when I'm thinking about it and saying it out loud. Do you feel that we're, we're very good at pigeonholing ourselves? And that's why we kind of need this series of activities to almost expand our mind and to think more broadly about, not only what we've got to offer, but how we sell ourselves more effectively.
[00:17:44] John: Right? I think, I think pigeonholing is one way of looking at it. I think that it's tempting to become attached to our comfort zone. It's a very tempting trap to be able to say, well, things are going well, my, my business is doing particularly well, or I'm getting promoted, I must be doing something right, I need to do more of the same. Maybe yes, maybe no.
[00:18:11] You want to be much more mindful of that, of that question and not necessarily believe what your external indicators seem to be telling you. Because you may be going off in a direction that's unhealthy for you. If producing those results and getting those promotions is at the cost of losing your sleep, you're losing your health, impacting your relationships negatively.
[00:18:40] Well, maybe it's not worth it. So it becomes very complex when you start to look at all of the factors that go into success to staying attached to a particular way of being. There's also fear. There's also fear of loss. You know, if I, if I don't do this, if I don't keep doing this, what am I going to do?
[00:19:06] There's a sunk cost fallacy that goes into this where, well, I've been doing it for so long, I mean, if I undid it now, I'd lose everything that I've built up. Even if it's going South, I should hold on to it. I should, I should stick it out. Maybe yes, maybe no. But you have to be aware of all of these risks that go along with pigeonholing yourself, allowing yourself to be pigeonholed, staying in your comfort zone.
[00:19:31] So part of this process of career development entails some questioning about the limiting beliefs that you may have about who you are, how the world works, what's open to you, what's not open to you. So again, inner inquiry is really important as a daily habit in your life.
[00:19:54] Gillian: Is part of your process, outer inquiry as well? Like, do you encourage people to go and talk to other people just to try and get some insights around what that superpower looks like for them?
[00:20:06] John: Absolutely. Absolutely. This is a total, it's a total 360. You want to start on the inside, but you also have to check it out on the outside, particularly as you develop along a career path, you're going to build up a certain amount of baggage. So, I like to say, first of all, that outer experience is a reflection of inner reality.
[00:20:29] In other words, how you are on the inside is going to dictate how you feel on the outside and how you experience the world on the outside. But also that in order to create the future, you have to reconcile the past. So if you are holding on to any imbalances or inconsistencies or damages or anything that is disturbing your peace in your life from past unresolved incidents, you need to take care of that because otherwise you will bring that into every meeting, every new project, every new relationship, and it will impact all of those situations negatively.
[00:21:18] Gillian: That's, a really interesting point. I think that's really hard work for some people too. You know, you can have an experience where very unfair things can unravel and you can feel very depleted and you can create a story around that. You can feel humiliated. You can make a lot of, create a lot of limiting beliefs that that sit around the, and I see this with some of the women, but what you're saying is you've got to go do the deeper work. And I imagine when you've done that deeper work, when you're talking to future prospects as well, your story, your demeanour, your optimism, it's going to be quite transformed, isn't it? If you can get rid of that baggage.
[00:21:59] John: My psychology program was all about the idea of transformation through forgiveness, particularly self-forgiveness, and the idea that so much of what we, of how we engage in the world is, is through projection, where the upset that we experience in life, a bad boss, someone cutting us off on the freeway. You know, our, our kid having problems or tantrums or whatever. All of these external upsets really go back to the relationship that we have with ourselves and that these are triggers and opportunities for us to look inwardly and go, okay, so why am I so upset about this?
[00:22:47] There's all sorts of stuff that goes on that doesn't get me quite so upset. What is it? What is it about this one thing? What does it remind me of in my own life that I do to others that I do to myself? What are the judgments? And that process of untangling the projection and taking responsibility and ownership for pretty much everything in our lives, all the choices that we have to make.
[00:23:15] I mean, we, we can't, be responsible if, if someone, you know, bashes their car into our house. It's not our fault that that happened, but how we respond to that is something that we can control. So it's very much of a stoic philosophy approach to life and I, and I believe to career as well, right? So rather than to, to be victimised in a career, we need to recognise that we have choices, right?
[00:23:42] And that choice can be empowering for us to either resolve the situation where we are, or if it's not resolvable where we are, we have to move. And then we have choices there, but how we're going to go about doing it. Right. And this, again, it gets back to the conversation about the inner versus the outer, right.
[00:23:59] To be able to say, you know, here's where I am. Here's what I really want. Let me write my list of, of wants and deal breakers. Maybe that's changed in the last 10 years since I last did this list. Let's update this. Let's check this out with, with our, our close friends and colleagues who are people we can trust to kind of mirror this back and say, is this right?
[00:24:19] Is this, is this me? And talk to 5 or 10 people and say, look, here are my 10 questions. Let's see what your answers are. You're doing research. You're taking data. Don't take it personally. Right. But you want to get that answer because now you can say, Hmm, interesting. Five people say the same thing.
[00:24:34] Three people say this, one person says that. Let me evaluate those answers and make some decisions about that.
[00:24:42] Gillian: Yeah, I love that. And it is data. You’re absolutely right. You're right. Do you know what I mean? It's just data and you have to look at the data and, and see how it's going to help you. So once you, once you get the wheels in motion for this whole process, and I always say to women In the nicest possible way, John, you kind of got to buckle up a little bit because you have to be quite disciplined and, and focused. You think about it for a lot of successful people haven't been for a job interview for two decades, and now they have to sell themselves and it's this completely new experience. And so stepping into that, I always say you have to be quite disciplined and have processes and, and do the work.
[00:25:21] It's like a little side hustle. That's going to keep you, you busy. But one of the things you say, which I love, and I'd love you to expand on it. You say confidence comes last. Like we can't wait for it, just tell us more about that because there's so much said about women and confidence and all that sort of stuff. And, and I love it. You're going confidence comes last.
[00:25:42] John: The idea there is that don't let your lack of confidence prevent you from taking action. There are plenty of successful business owners, entrepreneurs, solopreneurs out there. Who are terrified and you would think, Oh my God, they're so successful. Why are they so terrified? And they're terrified just because they are risking every day.
[00:26:05] Yet they are acting every day. They are moving forward every day because on some level, their willingness to risk and their belief that at the end of the day, it's going to be okay trumps that reluctance to take action. So I'm not saying that, you're never going to be confident.
[00:26:27] I'm saying that, that don't let the lack of confidence hold you back. Don't make, don't let that be an excuse, which I think a lot of people who say, well, when I, when I feel more confident about looking for a new job, I'll start looking for a new job.
[00:26:41] Start now, right? There's a way of doing it where you can manage that process.
[00:26:47] I wrote a, an article, a blog article the other day about how to look for a new job so your boss doesn't find out.
[00:26:56] Gillian: That used to be the old leave the keys on the desk and the jacket on the back of the chair. Right. Yeah. I love that.
[00:27:04] John: But there's an answer to all of this, right? There are ways of nuancing this process and not letting your fears run you. Right. That's, that's really, I think, the most important part of all of this that there's, there's always a way forward, right? And we all have to find the way that makes sense for us.
[00:27:24] It doesn't necessarily have to be dramatic. It can be small, but meaningful, and consistency at the end of the day and persistence is going to produce results.
[00:27:37] Gillian: I couldn't agree with you more. And that's, that's what I mean around the discipline. It's just so important. Yeah. Talk to us also about you know, you've got to find your passion. Like that's, that's how you find your career. You find your passion. But you talk about finding your usefulness instead. So this is really about understanding your capabilities, your alignment, all of those sort of things.
[00:27:59] John: Usefulness is this idea that, that you're making something or producing something that is going to move the needle for someone else, right? How do we appeal to our market? And in that ikigai, that third question is, what does my world need? So that's a very, very key concept for us as we're thinking about moving on to the next stage of our career, finding another job. Being useful is figuring out the answer to that question. And again, it's an external research piece. First question is, what do I love to do?
[00:28:33] Second question is, what do I do well? So there, there, there are two things that you can look at. And then at that intersection, there's got to be a way of applying it to what the world needs. You can go out to your, your network, your closely held network, what I want to call your, I like to call your personal board of directors and say, okay.
[00:28:54] I, I figured this out. I love to do this of all the stuff I've done. This is what I really love to do. And then of all the stuff that I've done, this is what I really do well. And I've got not just the way I feel about it, but I've got objective feedback on the fact that I do this well, and that's what I've been promoted in or this or that.
[00:29:11] So now where can I apply that? Who needs this? And this is where it gets interesting. It gets into the second element of my three elements program, which is build a community, not just a network, but build a community around what you offer and where your market is located so that your community can come back and give you that feedback that you need and find the opportunities for you to be useful out in the world, and land.
[00:29:45] Gillian: That's so true. You know, at exercise this morning, I know it's your afternoon, but at exercise at 6am this morning, one of our people, we call them our people because we've been exercising together for a very long time.
[00:29:56] She joined a new company as a startup three months ago, and they've just gone into liquidation. And she's very clear on what she has to offer and all of that. And it was so interesting watching the group this morning, with that clarity to your point, people were reaching out with recommendations because some worked in associated industries and things and creating introductions and all of those sort of things. And I really, I kind of had this moment of admiration for her because she was very good at articulating what she wanted, which then enabled others to say, I can help you in this way.
[00:30:35] John: She's a complete poster child for, for this methodology, because if you can do that, if you have a clear sense of your superpower, of what you do, what you do well, what your target market is, you know, all of those aspects of your deliverable, right, of the, of the value proposition, it makes it so much easier for the people who want to help you, to help you, because you have given them the specific Marching orders that they need and that they can easily communicate to others. So I think one of the biggest problems people have, particularly as they gain experience and gain skills in multiple jobs, is this idea that, oh, I can do anything, right? I've done this, I've done that, you know, what do you need? I'm applying to this job, that job. There's, you know, I, I can, I can, I can fit into that job description or this one over here.
[00:31:28] And why am I not landing? Why am I not getting interviews? Why am I not getting offers? And it's because you're not clear about the specialty that you offer.
[00:31:39] Gillian: So true. So true. And I loved your networking strategy. I kind of, I kind of do my sales process a bit like this with, you've got your A, B's and C's. So C's are your more periphery people, B's are, you have a connection with them, a reason to ignite them. And A's are your inner tribe sort of thing.
[00:31:57] And you want to get your B's to the A's. Like, I love having methodologies during this time because I think that's what we need. You know, we need frameworks to keep us very engaged in the process.
[00:32:08] John: When I'm working with people and we go into this network building, community building phase, and I would say most of the people I work with are those people with 500 plus connections on LinkedIn, right?
[00:32:22] Gillian: Nothing on yours, John. Nothing on yours. Tell everyone how many connections you have.
[00:32:26] John: Well, I have about 10,000 connections and about 16,000 followers.
[00:32:31] It's not about the numbers, right? Back to the point, it's a really good point, because it's really about the quality of the people. Because I would say most of my 10,000 people are Cs, I call them silver, right? Another probably maybe 200, 300, maybe are, are gold or people who I actually know have some kind of contact with or compatible with my world. But a very small number are platinums.
[00:32:56] So those are the, you know, the tribe, as you would say, and even fewer of those platinums are on my board of directors. So when I work with people on this, I say, go through your whole list, go quickly, don't spend too much time on it and pull out 50 to a hundred people that you want to get in touch with.
[00:33:18] They may be current connections. They may be people that you've known for a long time. You haven't talked to them in a while, but reconnect and use the work that you've been doing on your profile to specify your superpower and define your niche and your specialisation. Use that as the excuse to reintroduce yourself to them because they probably, even if they know you from recently or currently, they may not have a clear sense of who you are and what you provide.
[00:33:53] So, reconnecting with them as your Platinums, your top 50 to 100 Platinums, gives you this platform to now say, okay, let's talk about this. And you're not asking them for connections, you're not asking them for referrals, you're asking them for feedback on your profile. Is this accurate? Am I communicating my value correctly?
[00:34:16] I like to say, don't lead with your need, right? Don't ask for favours before you offer a favour, right? Just as a peer, get their advice, how you should represent yourself, but that gets the ball rolling and then all of a sudden they may call you back and they say, you know, I was thinking about your profile, like what you, like what you're saying, and, you know, by the way, you might want to change this thing or that thing, or I want to hear more about this, cause this was a great thing that you did and you should talk more about it. What about this? Right. They may have an idea.
[00:34:49] Gillian: Yeah. And you're on the radar. You're on the radar. They're thinking about you. Hmm. Yeah. 100%. think that's golden. Good old LinkedIn. I find it so clunky, but it is our, it is the number one business platform and you can't ignore It It's a, it's a very important vehicle, particularly at this time, close to winding up, John.
[00:35:07] I could talk to you for ages, but we do have to wind up obviously. What, what advice would you give to our wonderful listeners? Mid-level leaders who want to advance in their careers? What would you say?
[00:35:19] John: I, I would say that one of the most challenging things that people confront or have to confront, I believe, at this stage, is really acknowledging their magnificence, right? Acknowledging their value and the impact that they can make through who they are, who they've become, what they've learned, what they can teach, how they can make people feel good.
[00:35:46] Right? and this kind of goes to the third element in my, in my methodology, which is to stand up for what you stand for. To find an opportunity every day. Whether it is reaching out to your connections, whether it is communicating ideas, whether it is going on a podcast, participating in some kind of a volunteer project or an event where you get a chance to work with others.
[00:36:11] Where you can display the value, where you can put that into motion in a way that is not directly about your job but is really more about you as a valuable resource and a leader and a servant leader in your world and in your community. That would be my recommendation because it, it really is befitting for people who have achieved a certain amount of credibility and trust and expertise to now start giving that back. And giving back is what's going to help you grow even more.
[00:36:46] Gillian: Most definitely paying it forward. Yeah. Love that. And John, a very important question. Where can people find you?
[00:36:53] John: Well, other than LinkedIn, which is, I think, the number one easy place to find me because it's all, it's all there. I'm the only John Tarnoff that I know of on LinkedIn. But if you're at all interested in this question of where to start and these ikigai questions, you can download a worksheet on my website, johntarnoff.com/4questions and you'll get the worksheet. There's also on the blog there just a, I hesitate to kind of say it's a wealth of information, but there's a lot of there's a lot of information there about a lot of these ideas that we talked about on this call.
[00:37:30] So if you're interested in learning more about a lot of where I come from in this by all means, it's on that website. The other thing that I've done recently is launched a community for mid-career professionals called the Mid Career Lab and you can learn more about that and sign up. It's a free, it's a free community. We do a monthly call. There are other plans that I've got to engage the members. And it's at midcareerlab.com and check it out.
[00:37:58] Gillian: We’ll pop it in the show notes. So it'll all be there. But thank you so much. It's been a real pleasure chatting to you this morning and thank you for sharing all your insight.
[00:38:06] John: Pleasure for me. Thanks so much.