Your transcript

[00:00:00] Gillian: What comes to mind when I say the words career ambition? Does it excite you? stress you out, remind you of your old self, or bring you joy. Career ambition looks different for everyone, and can become more intense at various stages in our lives. Maybe you're ready for that next promotion, need a change, feel bored, stifled where you are.
[00:00:23] Or you just know that you're capable of so much more. Today, we have an exciting international guest, Jenny Mitchell, who is a senior coach and a brilliant speaker based in Canada. Jenny is also the author of a book called Embracing Ambition. And in it, she interviews 12 inspirational senior women to explore their perspectives on striving, failing, and what ambition has meant to their careers.
[00:00:51] Now, I hadn't met Jenny before this interview, she reached out months ago to join the show. And finally, we got together. Now, as you know, we rarely have guests outside of my own network, but there is something special about Jenny. And for me personally, it was such a treat to sit down with another experienced coach who is passionate about helping women.
[00:01:15] There was just such a natural energy between us. And I think for you, I really think you're going to gain tremendous value from this episode too. So let's dive in and explore with Jenny -- ambition and how you can step out, be seen and lead more effectively.
[00:01:30] Well, welcome Jenny to the Your Brilliant Career podcast. It is a pleasure to have you here.
[00:02:23] Jenny: It's my pleasure. And this might be the only podcast where I have the accent.
[00:02:28] Gillian: Well, where are you dialing in from today?
[00:02:31] Jenny: I am dialing in from Ottawa, Canada. So, um, put yourself near Toronto morning for you and it's evening for me while we record.
[00:02:39] Gillian: Well, Jenny, let's, let's dive straight in because, I'm really curious that we, I mean, you and I have so much to talk about because we have a very similar purpose in life in the way that we support women, but I really want to talk about your book because I know from experience, how much goes into pulling together a book.
[00:02:58] And, and your book is called Embracing Ambition, which itself is quite captivating. So my first question, Jenny is like, what motivated you to write a book about ambition?
[00:03:09] Jenny: Well, I didn't know when I started that I was going to be writing a book about ambition. I started with this idea that we needed to explain or share with people, not the textbook version of how you're supposed to lead as a woman, but the feeling of how it feels to lead as a woman. And what happened in the process was that every one of the stories had this element of ambition in its own unique way in the 12 manifestations of these 12 women in the book.
[00:03:47] And when we were doing titles. Which is an absolutely fascinating thing, as I'm sure you know, having written a book. Embracing just seemed like the perfect word to balance that ambition, you know? That you could have both, it warmed it up, it was more feminine. But we didn't want to lose that big capital A at the beginning of the word ambition.
[00:04:06] Gillian: Yeah, so interesting. So, so you started off writing this book just with a lot of curiosity around what made these women successful, and then what emerged was they all had this fascinating type of ambition that allowed them to overcome obstacles, push through and create the successful careers that they have.
[00:04:29] Jenny: Yeah, and to your point or to your work, uh, sometimes the women themselves don't realise what their natural strengths are. Sometimes having a mirror put up to them was part of the process. So just for some context, I invited these 12 women, some of whom I knew, some of whom I didn't, some of whom I knew through reputation, I mean, it was a very, nerve wracking thing to undertake, but I, I felt so, so secure in the project. I've really believed in the project. And so when they all arrived Friday night, we went for drinks. Uh, we all met in Toronto at a really nice hotel and we went for drinks and about 45 minutes in, I was like, okay, this is going to be okay. Matter of fact, this is going to be great. And I just want to share how we workshop the stories, because I think there's some value for other facilitators and trainers and listeners out there.
[00:05:20] We worked in groups of three, so one person would tell their story what they thought would be the story for the book.
[00:05:26] Gillian: Their story on how they embraced ambition or is their story about their leadership career? And just for context for everyone, Jenny has done a book with 12 high performing women and instead of just going to interview all of them individually, she got them all together.
[00:05:43] Gillian: So we're now on location all together, which is such a fascinating concept.
[00:05:47] Jenny: It totally is and uh, and then to get them to trust,right, and to bring them together and to be clear they wrote their own stories We heavily edited with them their stories, but these are 100 percent first person stories with their voices throughout. And you'll, you'll know that right away because each time you change stories, there's a totally different voice there.
[00:06:09] So one person tells their, what they think is going to be their story, their pivotal story about leadership. To be clear, one person is going to ask questions and the third person. Their role is just to listen and what transpired in these workshops was the experience of having your story repeated back, reflected back, mirrored back to you, gave this incredible sense of acknowledgement to these women, like they, you know, they'd say these things like, oh, and then I was kicked off the board and then blah, blah, blah. And then the, the question asker is like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Stop. Tell me more because they had integrated this, uh, or in some cases deep sixed. This experience so far so deep and so bringing it back for many of them.
[00:07:00] They talked about it being a very healing, very cathartic experience to recapture, reclaim those moments in their leadership journey and to have that, confidence going forward, because these are all in situ, these are all women that are working. They're not retired and talking backwards.
[00:07:17] And I think that was also another unexpected gift of knowing your leadership story and your why.
[00:07:23] Gillian: And do you think there's your observation in that is that we are very quick to dismiss perhaps the moments in our career that we don't feel as proud of. Yet, if you look at most high performing people, and we know this as coaches and behind the scenes, every successful person has had a dark moment in their career where they've been knocked off a board or they've lost a job or something has happened that does not feel congruent with the high performer, highly successful individual that they are.
[00:07:55] But I think it's so important to give some of those things airtime. And what you're saying, Jenny is, is really get the right thought processes around that because it's not a weakness at all.
[00:08:10] Jenny: And it is a narrative that we tell ourselves. So being able to air that narrative and share it in a safe space with peers really important, right? One of the things the ladies said was, being with a group of women that get you, you know, I have lots of different women in my life for lots of different reasons.
[00:08:26] My first mastermind was breastfeeding club, right? You're like, how the heck do I do this thing? Um, That I'm supposed to know, like, organically, right? So I've always sought out people. But there are different women for different parts of my life too, and finding women that will lift you up and hold space for you when you're struggling with some aspect of work, that's harder to find.
[00:08:48] Because I do think not every woman and not everyone needs to be ambitious. Let's just be clear that not everybody's aspiration is to end up in the C-suite. What I always say is though, as far as working with me, I, that's not my ultimate goal for everyone, but the people I work with, I want them to want to be just a little bit better tomorrow than they were today.
[00:09:08] Gillian: And that is ambition though, isn't it? I mean, it's cause let's, let's talk about that because ambition and women is such an interesting notion. Like historically it's like, it's been this dirty word, you know, we're not meant to be as outspoken about it. It is time to redefine our gendered idea of ambition. Like, what do you think that needs to look like Jenny? Like, what have you learned along this journey
[00:09:31] Jenny: Well, I've, yeah, I've learned that language really matters. So words like competition, winning, top dog, top rung, those are not words that resonate at all with women. Full stop.
[00:09:47] And yet words like collaborate, celebrate, elevate, uplift, magnify, amplify, those are words that they absolutely get behind. So I actually think sometimes we have a language barrier where men think, and I'm simplifying, but men think that women aren't ambitious because they don't act like the way they do.
[00:10:10] And I think there's much more nuance to a female ambition. Even if you think of. The two sexes from like a stereotypical, not a masculine feminine, but masculine energy is get it done, Gillian, right? Like to do list. We need that energy. We need that sort of kick in the pants, get things done, get to the heart of things.
[00:10:32] Female energy is a lot more long term, a lot more beguiling, a lot more subtle, a lot more inviting, a lot more come alongside me, bring you along the journey. And I think the ultimate is that we can flip between the two energies that we need. But please don't call female energy not ambitious.
[00:10:52] Gillian: Do you think though, if you're defining those two different styles, do you think in the corporate world that helps or hinders women?
[00:11:01] Jenny: That's a loaded question.
[00:11:03] Gillian: Well, I know it's an interesting question, right? Like it's, I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but business environments are business environments and, there are things that will provide reward in those environments and there are things that won't.
[00:11:18] Jenny: And there are things that kind of tag you. I think that's kind of what you're talking about. One of the most interesting experiences I had was I was on the jury for a women's business network award, and I sat around a table with 10 other women and there were some men in the room making decisions about profiles and nominations and only 1 or 2 of the women spoke about their family in the profiles.
[00:11:40] And it was interesting because, you know, one of my working theories is that the generation before us really had to conform in order to be heard and had to become part of the hierarchy. And so they tend to be very outspoken and this is how I did it. And, and so sort of like a gruffness to it, which I personally don't identify with, I can absolutely respect it.
[00:12:02] Right. And I know exactly where it comes from. And it was interesting because around the table, I had one gal that was a partner at an accounting firm and she's like, well, you know, it's quite obvious to me who the person is that should be chosen, you know, and she spoke with such authority with this kind of voice.
[00:12:15] And then across the table from her, the millennials, right? The younger folks, they're like, oh, that's interesting. Tell me more about that. Like it was stereotypical generational. For me, I wanted to hear about how the leader that knew about the person's family, like the leader that talked about walking the floor and asking how their family was and et cetera.
[00:12:35] And that was integral to me. So what I, what I propose here is that they're just different styles, but we are not the majority yet. And if you think that in the modern world, you can just ask people to show up, stay in their lane, do their work and not have to engage on an emotional level with the, you will not be in leadership for very long anymore post pandemic.
[00:12:58] Gillian: Yeah. I love that too. We've been talking about this this week and we were having such a laugh and I ended up doing a post on it because when I think back to my early days in corporate, I worked in magazines, Jenny, and I was quite young and I was in a senior leadership role and I had a baby. The baby is now 22 and, uh, I was missing him and my Mum, who was absolutely fabulous at supporting me during that time, organised a little childcare down the road at 10 o'clock on Tuesday.
[00:13:26] And I used to leave the office, pretend that I was going to a client appointment, rock on down the street, look over my shoulder to make sure no one was looking, enter the childcare and then I take my high heels off and I'd sit on the edge of the sand pit and play with Ollie for an hour or so, and then go back to the office.
[00:13:45] And then I remember one day, and that was a Tuesday morning ritual. I remember one day being in a boardroom that following afternoon, and I crossed my legs and all this sand fell off my legs. But anyway, I posted this and I got the funniest responses back because most women have a funny story where they have lied and I think it's great to give visibility to this because, you don’t have to lie. You know what I mean? You need to, we are our whole self as, as you're saying. And of course, you still, if you're going to be, you know, five minutes late because of breastfeeding or whatever, you still need to bring poise and professionalism to that meeting when you land and be fully present.
[00:14:30] But that is your life right now. So being able to say that without remorse I think is a wonderful leadership trait.
[00:14:41] Jenny: I so applaud that and I would like more women to model it so that their direct reports can model it. And so that their direct direct reports can model it. You know, sometimes I laugh because I'm a tennis player and I'm always checking to see, well, would it, would it fly if it was a man, you know, so there'll be this thing where, Oh my God, she's on the tennis court.
[00:15:36] Look at her playing at Roland Garros and she has three kids. Can you believe it? She has three kids. And I think it wouldn't flip if you said, Oh my God, Roger Federer. I can't believe he's on the tennis court. He has four kids. Can you believe it!
[00:15:51] Like it doesn't, it doesn't translate. So I always ask people to think about that when we, cause we have these very unconscious biases. Shouldn't taking care of our children and loving our children be a natural organic trade of great leadership and why do we make the assumption that it would hinder our ability to complete our work? Why doesn't it enhance?
[00:16:14] Gillian: Yeah. I love that. You see, I have this thought process, Jenny, and I feel like it, it defines a lot of my approach sometimes, but I honestly believe as woo woo as this might sound, that our core mission in life as parents is to bring up good humans. Like we talk about career advancement, everything else, super, super important, but, that trumps everything, right?
[00:16:37] It trumps everything. And I think, you know, most parents do believe that. But I'm so happy to say that, even though I put so much passion into helping women advance. Because if that's not working, nothing's working, Jenny, nothing's working. You know, any parent will know if your kid has a problem, you experience that emotion more than they do. It's a pain undefined or compared to anything else. So it is a really interesting concept and one that I think we should lean into more. What sort of challenges do you see women bring to you in coaching around ambition? Like what are some of the things that you see?
[00:17:20] Jenny: So probably a lot of the same things you see, but the one that always makes me laugh. I have to watch that. I don't laugh and I don't mean laugh like laugh. I want to improve my executive presence.
[00:17:32] And I, kind of, I giggle because I'm like, well, tell me what that is for you. Because it's very different for me versus you.
[00:17:41] But I find a lot of women think that there's this external magic button that you press where suddenly everybody listens to you suddenly, you know, you know, like, and you've got the clothes. Let's just, let's just normalize. You have to look the part, right? We are chameleons. They're not going to respect you in a summer frock and, and wild hair from the beach.
[00:18:02] It's just not going to happen. So, but there's another part to that because. What I think happens is they look externally first and the part that they all transition to, and it happens over a short amount of time or a big amount of time, is to look inside to, like you said, knowing who they are and knowing that they're a good human.
[00:18:25] Because when you're a good human, you know, where the ethical line is. When you're a good human, you know, when you're treating someone well, or not. Like, you don't have to go through this whole, how am I supposed to act? So that's one for sure, this executive presence. I'm going to tag on a second, 1, which is…
[00:18:41] I want to learn how to have my voice heard at the table and that we really makes my heart break to be honest. And if you dig a little deeper. Basically, I believe that we reenact our 5-year-old selves over and over and over again in the boardroom, unless that gets tended to and we take the time to take care of ourselves and learn about our, our human patterns and our family patterns and our personal stories because when I hear I want to be able to be heard at the boardroom table there’s absolutely some techniques, right? We know the techniques from the books. One is oh, thank you so much for that. I'm just not finished. Just let me finish my sentence. Or the second one is you know, when this is when you get interrupted, because it does happen.
[00:19:30] Can we just normalise that? It's a thing, people. It's a thing, right? Thanks so much. I wasn't finished my thought. I'll just finish my thought, and then we can move on, right? So you just take a hold of it, back in, and you finish it up. The other one is letting other people speak. So, uh, Gee, Susan, it sounded to me that was a lot like what Bob said right here.
[00:19:49] Am I correct in that? So redirecting can be a third one. And then maybe the reality of underneath all of that is feeling underappreciated, unnoticed and playing a role that you, that has been built for you. And so changing how you see yourself. I think is the first step to changing how others see yourself.
[00:20:12] Gillian: Okay. So you must do a lot of deep inner work with the women around who they are as a person before going on to, you know what I mean? More practical coaching tips on how they behave. So that must be fascinating. Just watching that transformation.
[00:20:28] Jenny: You know, and I've done it for a while now. And I kept asking myself, you know, how am I delivering the most value? I keep asking myself, is this really making the transformation they want? And one of the important tenants of coaching, you know, you'll know this one too, is be careful that I don't impose my views on people.
[00:20:48] I try really hard to keep open ended questions because they always know the answers. I'm, my job is to ask the questions and it's very easy. Ooh, you think, Oh, I can do this. I know the answer to this question. And you say, well, hold on, Jenny, ask good question. And then they answer and the knowing is just in their eyes, right?
[00:21:08] They know. The answer. And my answer is not their answer. And when that knowing, that reconnection between, let's call it your gut in your head, that is magical and nobody can throw you off your game and nobody will ask you about your executive presence in those situations.
[00:21:25] Gillian: It’s beautiful. I imagine a lot of that work is really uncovering some of their limiting beliefs and the negative narratives. How do you, how do you tackle that Jenny? Cause there's, I mean, there's a lot written about this, there's a lot of strategies and approaches, but it's a really, it's, it's not easy for people to let go of the fear, the scarcity, the guilt, whatever it might be for them.
[00:21:51] Jenny: Yeah, yeah, you're so right and it's a process. I'd say that I'm still unlearning. That's a phrase I've been playing with a lot too, unlearning. And I like the idea, I guess a couple of things that normalise it for me around core beliefs. You are a product of your society. So this is not only just you, we live in a society and so that whole piece has always been going on in your world.
[00:22:16] You were born into a family and that's part of your story. Not good, bad or otherwise, just part of your story. And the part that I love about the core belief work is. You can hold a belief and you can know a belief that you currently have, and then you can make the intention to change it to something else that better serves you.
[00:22:35] And I don't mean, like, in a woo woo way, I mean, in an intentional, this is how I choose to show up now, but that requires a lot of me because I've been this person. I think with women, one of the things that happens is. You know, they got to where they are on the food chain or the ladder by using their brains and being smarter than everybody else.
[00:22:55] At least my experience, ambitious women are super smart. They're trying to think their way out of problems, but they're not necessarily all that comfortable with trusting their gut. And they're maybe not all that comfortable with, going with their knowing and, and taking a look at those beliefs that said, you are only important if you jump the next hurdle.
[00:23:14] Jenny: You only matter, right? It's, those are really destructive beliefs that we've been taught.
[00:23:19] Gillian: Yeah. But the intuition piece is a really interesting one, isn't it? I, I feel like as I'm getting older, I really try to lean into that more because I thought far out, I must have a decent foundation to be able to intuitively lean into this and trust that it's going to be the best possible outcome and if it's not like, it's not right. But I do think we, it is very easy for high performing people to want that next win. It's almost an autopilot response and society recognises us for it. We get a pat on the back. So there's, there's a lot in that. And you talk about, you know, women, this always on identity.
[00:24:00] Tell us a little bit more about that, Jenny, because I think that's a, such a poignant point.
[00:24:04] Jenny: Yeah. So if we've achieved success because we've always been quicker, smarter, faster, more intelligent than everyone else, to let go of that identity is incredibly hard.
[00:24:19] Gillian: So hard, like even harder than someone losing their job and their identity hard. And that's hard.
[00:24:26] Jenny: And it's hard.
[00:24:27] And most of the time, the way it happens is really messy, right? So it shows up as panic attacks. It shows up as, as, uh, you know, a moral crisis. It shows up as, as mental health and, you know, understandably so. And the minute that I find women take back control of their choices, and how many times have I talked to a client where they're like, well, I have high standards.
[00:24:52] Like I'm not letting go of my high standards. And I say, no problem. Like I have high standards too. I completely respect that. But do you think we could put a pulley on the ladder so that you got to choose how high the standards were? Rather than this experience of, you have this experience with women where they're like, well, I got to 60 signups.
[00:25:14] Let's call it just using a standard thing. And then they get there and they move the goalposts. Gillian. Well, that wasn't enough. I'm just going to move the goalposts. It wasn't enough. I'm going to and so you're basically chasing a moving target of success. You never arrive. You never get to celebrate. You never take a break. No matter what you do. It's never enough.
[00:25:35] Gillian: Yeah. It's, it's so true. I think that's, I, and I think I just traveled a lot of my career like that, Jenny, to be quite honest with you in my early days, I think it was. and, you know, they talk about women not feeling enough, not being smart enough. Well, Of course, you never ever satisfying your own expectations and you know, you're never completing anything that really resonates with you. Of course, you're going to feel like that.
[00:26:01] Jenny: then you put the joy and the sense of accomplishment into it. And, and it's just a completely different game. Let me, let me, and I mean, I want to honor the fact that I'm still working on it. I go to a full day retreat, uh, for my business, which is such a treat as you know, right?
[00:26:14] It's important for us to find time for our businesses and our thoughts. And the hardest question on it was, okay, what are you going to do? What are your goals? I'm like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
[00:26:24] And the last question is, and what will you do to celebrate when you achieve them?
[00:26:29] Gillian: Yeah. I always find that hard too. Jenny. And then, and then my first hit at it is really silly. Like, go and have a facial.
[00:26:38] Jenny: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:26:42] Gillian: So it does require deeper thought and the whole point of celebration, I think it's so quickly dismissed because it's like, yeah, yeah, we know that, we know that, we know that. Good, good, good. Yeah, I've done it. but how do you celebrate? Like, it's such an interesting one for us all to ponder a bit more deeply.
[00:26:56] Like, how do you really take a moment to pause and reflect on what has just transpired? Like, I have one friend and I love this. She's an entrepreneur. And every time she gets a win, she buys a bottle of Bollinger's champagne and she puts it in the fridge. And she said like, you know, right now the fridge is groaning and it's this visual, accolade that is, I'm looking for the milk, you know, and there's just champagne everywhere, but it's really smart, right?
[00:27:26] Because she is so anchored in that reward. That it motivates her to keep achieving these particular goals. Yeah.
[00:27:35] Jenny: So, and all of you on this podcast that are laughing right now, cause I know there's so many of us are going, Oh, champagne. I could, but the indulgence is part of it. The physical manifestation is part of it. Like for you, it might be plane tickets, put them somewhere visual because you know, now where I'm kind of getting at in my life is I want to work hard.
[00:27:57] Like, I don't want to give up. working hard. I'm, I'm hell bent and I love it, but I also want to play hard because I'm also very mindful that I'm very much capable of being a workaholic. If I don't have something to push against it, it just kind of grows to fill the space. Right. Uh, and so really kind of indulging and enjoying that space.
[00:28:19] I had a friend that said she starts her year by planning her vacations. And the work goes around it and I thought that was another great way, a manifestation of that's what success looked like to her to have that ability. And don't diminish celebration. I think there's a second part that celebrating ourselves, which is very foreign for women, and then there's celebrating our teams in a way that's meaningful to them because it's the celebration is different for everybody. You can't just say we're all going to go out for dinner anymore because some of your team have kids that's a burden, right? From 3 to 5 to daycare trading off. I think things will become a lot more individualised.
[00:29:02] As leaders, we're going to have to individualise our experiences for each of our staff. Because everybody's in a very different place. And if we genuinely want to recognise people, we have to, here we go, have to know them. Really well.
[00:29:17] Gillian: So true, Jenny. So true. And I feel like you're exceptionally good at this as a coach. So, but Jenny, this is a very important question. Where can people find you?
[00:29:25] Jenny: Thank you. Well, the book is on Amazon. That's super easy. Embracing Ambition. You can find me at www.chavender.com. That's Chavender like lavender, but with a CH at the beginning. Sidebar, Chavender is a fish. It lives in the east coast of Canada and the United States, and it is incredibly adaptable, Gillian.
[00:29:42] So it lives in saltwater, freshwater. It doesn't mind if the boats go by and stir up the bottom. And I thought it was a great analogy for leadership, right? The adaptability of the learning is ours and we adapt, as we grow.
[00:29:55] Gillian: I loved it too. I read that. And yeah, and I'm like, Oh, that's really cool. That's really cool. Well, Jenny, thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure. We'll put all those details in the show notes so people can find you. But thank you so much for sharing. It was such a lovely, honest, easy conversation.
[00:30:13] Jenny: And it was a real pleasure. So thank you again for having me.