Your transcript

[00:00:00] Gillian: When you're about to speak with senior leaders, what goes through your mind? Maybe it's the serious faces around the table, the feeling of being the most junior in the room, or the pressure to get every word right. These moments can spark nerves, even when you know your material inside and out. Today, I'm delighted to welcome Marla Heller, Global Client Partner at EY.
Marla and I go back nearly a decade to when she first moved from the U. S. to take on a major role in Australian banking. Throughout the years, I've watched Marla not only advance her career, but also become a generous mentor and role model, often sharing her knowledge and perspective to support other women in her industry.
She brings a fantastic energy, very good insights and is truly a skilled communicator. So who better than Marla to help us understand what makes someone effective in communicating with senior leaders? In this episode, Marla shares exactly what senior leaders look for, what behaviours may miss the mark, and her own strategies for commanding a room.
Whether you're prepping for a high stakes presentation, or you want to feel more confident in big conversations, Marla's insights are so helpful. So let's dive in.
[00:03:09] Gillian: Marla, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for being here.
[00:03:22] Marla: Oh, Gil, it's truly my pleasure. I'm just delighted and I'm so passionate about this topic. I’m really excited to have a conversation.
[00:03:31] Gillian: So let's dive in, Marla. To start, tell us a little bit about your career journey, like what drew you into investment banking and what was it like working your way up to an executive role?
[00:03:59] Marla: Actually my brother was in investment banking in a different area and I really held him in high regard. He was so passionate about what he did and coming out of undergrad, there are certain programs that you know that you are just going to be trained at a very high level and it could take you in different directions and I was fortunate enough to land in banking.
I did early stage renewable financing. I did things which were predominantly male dominated and I learned so many things and it was so intellectually challenging that I just loved it. And so, I stayed in that. I moved around the United States.
I moved from Boston where I grew up to Chicago. Joined Bankers Trust. I did some more renewable work and from there wanted to continue to see the world. And so I moved internationally with Deutsche Bank to Australia where you and I met and have pushed myself quite extensively, but importantly, also been open to change.
And so I spent, ended up spending 20 years in investment banking, five different roles, three continents and then decided to do something completely different and moved into consulting where I have been for the past seven years.
[00:05:26] Gillian: Amazing, Marla. Such an extraordinary career. So let me say this on our topic today, I often say Marla, that senior people are the toughest audience, and no offense to you, but I say that because they can be impatient, like they can interrupt, they want information quickly. So I'm going to put it out there that communicating to senior execs can actually be hard work. It can be a bit of an art form. So my question to you, and I think this is quite fascinating for women to hear your perspective on this, as a senior executive yourself, how do you like to be personally communicated with? Is there a style or what needs to happen for you to feel like that is a good communication process that's working for me from a business perspective?
[00:06:08] Marla: Sure. First, I would like to just reiterate I think it's very intimidating for emerging women that are trying to get to the next level. To have a conversation with a senior leader. And it's intimidating because every time you are in front of a senior person, you are building your brand.
And so there's this added pressure of going into a conversation and sometimes when you go into that conversation, you're so focused on getting the content out that you miss the peripheral. You miss the EQ. You miss the empathy. You miss all the things that helped you get to that point in your career.
You miss that because you're so worried that you make the first impression right. 20 years in banking, I would say senior leaders are time poor. Everybody wants time and so you're always prioritising. So every time you have a meeting, you have to think this is more important than something else.
And so for me, I like somebody going in with the macro. I like somebody coming in and telling me, and I'll walk through later in some of our dialogue. First, I think you really need to understand, why are you having the meeting? What's the purpose of the meeting? Is the meeting because it's an update? Is the meeting because you're starting a conversation on an issue and you are thinking through challenges? Is the meeting because you're in the midst of a program? And the program is going well, and the senior leader just wants an update, or the program is having challenges, or is this strategic? Is it tactical?
I mean, there's so many things that you first have to assess. Why am I even being invited to this meeting? And what is my role in the meeting? So it's very important, I think, for a self-awareness to know why you're even in that meeting. In the way that I like to approach meetings, I like somebody to level set with this is the purpose of the meeting.
This is the macro of what we want to talk about, and we can cover 3 points, we can cover 5 points, and then we can delve in to the detail where I may be more inquisitive or want more substantiation and so one thing people have to understand is we're assuming all the research is done before you walk in that meeting.
We're assuming that you've got realms of data to support whatever you're talking about. On the flip side, what I don't like or where I stop it, is where people want to go into incredible detail first, without it getting to the point.
[00:09:08] Gillian: Yeah, I can see that. I think it's one of the challenges for so many women though, too, because they have this grand moment in front of someone important and they want to divulge the whole contextual business picture. But what you're saying, Marla, is you really want the executive summary and you want it up front. And then you can determine where you're going to go deeper in that discussion, and you want them to be flexible. Because talk about the EQ and being able to respond to different things outside the content that they need to be aware of to be effective in that situation.
You’re communicating yourself as well. Like you are going into important meetings with senior stakeholders, be it peers or clients. And I imagine, your goal is often to be influential and produce a good business outcome, so you are mindful of the way you communicate and making sure your message lands. What works for you, Marla?
[00:10:07] Marla: Well, first of all, I would say it's preparation. It will depend. It's not necessarily a one for one preparation, but it is thinking through. Do you really understand this stakeholder? If it's somebody I know, obviously there's a higher degree of comfort and what I would say is not necessarily casualness, but you know the person. So you feel more comfortable in talking to them.
And I recently had this where I was introduced to a board member that I did not know. So before going to the meeting, I knew exactly what I wanted to cover with the board member. I knew exactly where I wanted the board member to clarify their perspectives.
I knew that I wanted to play it back where I thought there may be questions and I wanted to hear if what I was articulating landed in the way that I wanted it to land. And I would say that I was more formal at the beginning and more relaxed and engaging at the end. Yes.
[00:11:21] Gillian: You replayed things back. This is what I understand are the issues or the points of discussion. And then you went into whatever your solution is, but you started with a very formal framework until you could read the room and there was space to relax and then you relaxed a bit more. Yeah. Beautiful.
[00:11:39] Marla: You don't always get that. You don't always get there, and you definitely don't always get there on the first meeting. And this raises another point that I think is hard at times. You have to learn to be patient. So when you're going in to have meetings particularly if it's like a transformation program and you're going to senior stakeholders and you have a view, but the senior stakeholder isn't at that point yet to go to that decision. You need to be cognisant enough to step back and let time pass or let other stakeholders come in to reinforce what you would say. Sometimes I think we want to go in and we want to say, we know what the right answer is, and we're going to lay it out on the table, and I'm going to walk out, and I'm going to close the book, and I'm going to be like, game on.
We know what we're going to do next. And sometimes the other stakeholders, depending upon their knowledge of where you are and the issue, the program, the challenge, they have to get there. And so you need to give them the time and the space to get there, to make an informed decision.
[00:12:58] Gillian: Patience is a beautiful point actually, because I think a lot of the senior leaders, even though they might be making shorter term decisions, it's often strategic decisions they're making, which is supporting the long term growth of the business. You know, one of the things that makes me laugh sometimes, and gosh, I'm sure I was the recipient of it myself, so I shouldn't be laughing is when people are very derailed when they go into a meeting, if, they are not getting the warmth and the response from senior leaders, but there's a lot of reasons for that. Isn't there, Marla? why it's going to be different. And it's not going to be a measure of your success is that while you're standing there people nodding and encouraging you, it's not an expectation, yet you still need to stay on your game and deliver on whatever it is you're trying to influence in that moment.
[00:13:47] Marla: Treat it as though it's an interview. Because there's a bit of anxiety when you go to an interview. You’re confident because you're in the interview. You need to be cognisant of what you're hearing in the room.
You need to be looking at the body language along with listening to what you're hearing. And you need to be adept at knowing when to pause and play it back to get a confirmation or an affirmation, versus just continuing. If the body language starts folding hands, if somebody picks up their phone, you really need to watch both of those simultaneously, which is why, unless it's a very structured, you're in there to do a presentation and then you sit down and then you take the Q&A. I always recommend that that people really try to get themselves into a comfortable state where it's a conversation. Because then you're engaging with the person. You're not just telling them something.
There are plenty of times where you may be making a presentation and you just want to nail that presentation. And that's probably the easiest one. Because you just focus on the content. The harder ones are where you're invited and you're one of many around a program and you've got to figure out what is the most salient points that you want to raise and you want to know if they resonate and if they landed how you want them to land.
[00:15:33] Gillian: And you never know what you're going to, all the preparation in the world, you don't know what you're going to walk into, like what happened half an hour beforehand or any of those things.
[00:15:42] Marla: Exactly. And you need to be flexible enough to go with the flow. You know, if somebody says, we had this meeting for 30 minutes, but I'm sorry, something has come up and I only have 15 minutes, you've got to think really quickly, what do I have to land in 15 minutes?
[00:16:02] Gillian: And how often does that happen?
[00:16:04] Marla: Most. I had a conversation. You know, we get on teams and all of a sudden this person is in a car and they said I’m really sorry, something came up in my calendar. I had to take a call. I now have to go to the office. I'm gonna have to do this from the car and you're like, okay. So there's distraction on the road. They're just you know, like there are so many things. How do I keep this simple?
[00:16:39] Gillian: And not be miffed that that is the case. You know what I mean? Like stay, it's not your ideal outcome for that moment, but you've still got to drive your best possible result from that discussion.
If I was to ask the women what they would find one of the hardest thing in speaking to senior stakeholders, I think they would say, Marla, how do you start the conversation?
There’s no generic response to that because there's so many different scenarios in business that you would engage a stakeholder. But what do you think are some of the big common pitfalls that people just repeatedly walk into.
[00:18:33] Marla: First of all, I think it depends on how well you know the stakeholder and I would encourage everyone to do research. So, if this is not someone that you are connecting with, engaging with on a consistent basis, or this is someone extremely senior, I would say do your research on the person, you know, read how this person communicates either verbally or, in comms.
So if you're talking to the CEO, what's the CEO like? Talk to people, use your network to figure out how others have engaged with this person. Or, if somebody likes to play golf, an opening, you know, just to take a little air out of the balloon is, did you get a chance to go play golf this weekend, or did you watch this competition?
Or, if you know, something just to bring it down a notch from the pressure of it being so formal, right? But that also depends on who's in the room. If you are the most junior person and you're being given the privilege to present on something, you've got to be so confident because it is such a recognition that you've gotten there, that you may want to say, I'm delighted to be here and it's a privilege to be sharing the output on the following with you. And most importantly, I want to walk out of this room knowing that I've answered the questions that you may have about the program.
[00:20:08] Gillian: How elegant, Marla. How elegant. Love that.
While we're talking about preparation, which has been a reoccurring theme in our chat today, when you go into those high stake meetings, how do you mentally prepare? Like, how do you find that confidence and bring that best game face that you mentioned earlier to it? Is there any strategies or methodologies? How do you step into that place as your best self?
[00:20:34] Marla: We talk about preparation and preparation gives you the to know the material. So you should be able to rattle off this, the data and the stats in your head. And yes, it may get comingled, or you may miss something. But try to do this in a way where it becomes comfortable for you. Don't read from presentation materials. If you send presentation materials in advance, assume they've been read. Unless you know that they're unlikely to have been read. And then you have to change and take a different tact. So you could say, for example, we've sent you the presentation materials in advance. Certainly, I'm cognisant and respectful of your time, would you like to go through in any particular areas or given your schedule, would you like me to highlight the major points? And then you know, immediately, have they read the materials and you're doing a deep dive, or are you doing the macro, setting the tone, right? Setting the baseline.
You need to back yourself. You have been invited. They see that value. They see how successful you are. They see how you are bringing expertise and experience to whatever it is that is being talked about.
And, be proud of that. Be proud of that and stand on that and say, I'm here for a reason.
[00:22:35] Gillian: You've earned your seat at the table. I love that. To wrap up, what advice would you give to women trying to progress their career?
[00:24:52] Marla: I think I have been a broken record about telling women to invest in themselves. and your programs are amazing for helping people to put structure around what their aspiration is for their career. What do they think their career looks like? And I think that is so helpful. But I also think it's helpful to check in and see, this is what I wanted to accomplish over the past year. This is what I did accomplish. These are all the other positive things that I've done and achieved.
And does that make me think about pivoting? And so I think, what I always want to say to women is don't be so structured that you don't see when doors open and be open minded to sometimes changing your path, whether it be a big change or whether it just be more moderate. Because I think curiosity and learning are what make people really interesting. And you really have to be passionate and you have to bring that energy to your role because people are attracted to people that are, energetic and passionate and want to learn and are curious.
So, obviously use networks. Don't underestimate the power of a network. But don't feel that just because you set out a path for your career, it can't be multi dimensional.
[00:27:00] Gillian: That's good advice. I know we get fixated sometimes and impose our own limitations around some of those things. So it's good to, to hear that out loud from someone such as yourself. Marla, thank you so much. It has been a pleasure and a delight having you on the podcast. And I think your perspective as a senior leader will add so much value to our listeners. And it's rare, as I said, like no one really tells you this stuff. So, thank you for sharing. I know everyone will take a lot away from what you’ve imparted today.
[00:27:28] Marla: Well, thank you, Gillian. It's been a privilege.